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Two base theory thinking
Topic Started: Jul 7 2016, 01:29 AM (7,731 Views)
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孫悟空

Omega Zee
Jul 8 2016, 12:08 PM
SSbardock84
Jul 7 2016, 04:39 PM
Omega Zee
Jul 7 2016, 03:43 PM
I don't buy the two base theory, I think if Goku channeled his God Ki in his base form he would turn Super Saiyan Red, as shown in chapter 13 of the Dragon Ball Super manga.

I've also just excepted that Dragon Ball Super isn't going fully explain (or explain at all) why certain characters are as strong as they are.
Didn't you read my opening post man? I never said that Goku's saiyan beyond god form was using god ki. It's just a form Goku was using to access the power of Super Saiyan Red. But later shown in the manga we see that he was able to actually transform into Super Saiyan Red gaining it's assets and abilities. The only saiyan forms that use god ki is Super Saiyan Red and Super Saiyan Blue.
I'm going to have to apologize on my part, I only tip-toed through you're post while reading it because I was sleepy at the time, sorry about that.


So what you're saying is that the 'Saiyan Beyond God' form is basically a non-mastered Super Saiyan Red?
That seems like a decent explanation, but that raises more questions than answers.
Like how could have Goku mastered Super Saiyan Blue (he attained Super Saiyan Blue by mastering his control of his God Ki) before he mastered Super Saiyan Red?
Or how would you be able to tap into Super Saiyan Red powers without using God Ki, when the Super Saiyan Red form completely relies on the usage of God Ki?
That's all right :D

Yeah it does bring more questions and I'm not quite sure yet. I'm thinking in RF that Goku could use Super Saiyan Red but he didn't for some reason and used Saiyan Beyond. There could be flaws to either one of them but I have no idea right now. I still have a lot of questions for it all myself and I hope we can find out more about it all later in the series.
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StrenuousSpider
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I see it simply as he can access god ki like transformation. kind of like the legendary form is to normal ssj. he can go normal ssj than he transforms into ssjb if he wants. like broly can go ssj than adds the legendary on top of that which both multiplies his power as well as change his appearance. which works for me because in the manga goku goes ssjr. he uses the god ki transformation to amp his base and than dose the same with ssj.
Edited by StrenuousSpider, Jul 12 2016, 04:40 AM.
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FutureSaiyan
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Tinny
Jul 7 2016, 01:54 PM
Timothy
Jul 7 2016, 01:31 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Jul 7 2016, 12:24 PM
Timothy
Jul 7 2016, 07:57 AM
Sbg is just base form yo. Ssj>ssg and base>>>>>>>>>ss3 gotenks. Stop the downplay
D'ya think Trunks is that strong then?

Also, how can he transform into SSJ when his Base has God Ki without transforming into SSB?
No but trunks has been fighting black for a year. Also idk. Maybe god ki is only accessed in god forms. Regardless without god ki ssj goku>>ssg
Did you say that Trunks isn't as strong as super saiyan god, but that ssj Goku is stronger than super saiyan god, when Goku was using ssj2 against Trunks?
How does that work?
Clearly Goku was holding back as he is annoyingly renowned for doing in super. Considering Black destroyed ss2 Trunks whilst Goku ss2 was matching black blow for blow and not even taking the fight that serious.
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

Kaboom
Jul 7 2016, 05:17 PM
I'm mostly apathetic about Super's power levels, but the so-called "two base" theory (which is a misleading name if you ask me) seems to make the most sense to me. I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, since Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.


Here's how I understand it to work, or at least my minimal-effort way of making sense of it...


* [ NO GOD-KI ] — Goku's normal base and Super Saiyan 1-3 forms, presumably only moderately stronger than before he became a god to fight Beerus.

* [ SOME GOD-KI ] — Goku can use some godly ki to enhance his normal power, usually just his base. He can still be sensed on some level but is much stronger than normal, already trumping almost everyone from the Majin Boo arc.

* [ MOST GOD-KI ] — The red-haired Super Saiyan God form. Goku taps into most of his godly ki while still in just his base form, which transforms his body into the kinda-unstable godly form he had against Beerus. His godly ki has almost fully replaced and overwritten his normal ki in this state, so he can no longer be sensed by mortals.

* [ ALL GOD-KI ] — Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan Blue. Goku uses Super Saiyan to tap into 100% of his godly ki reserves, and even push it a little farther and stronger than the red-haired SSG form. The godly ki completely "takes over" and eclipses his normal power, so he can't be sensed.



So I don't think of it like a "switch" for his god-ki that he can completely turn on or off and that's it. Instead, in my eyes it's more like a mixture of different liquids, like alcohol content in a drink or something. Goku's "beyond-god" base form may be 90% normal ki and 10% godly ki, but that godly ki is so damn potent that it shoots his power level far above normal.

The Super Saiyan forms don't factor into it much other than serving as better conduits for the god-power, since Goku seems to need the full Super Saiyan Blue transformation to be at his strongest, but it doesn't seem at all to be a big 50x boost over SSG.


+1.
Completely agree with this.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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the two base theory is baseless garbage. thats the simplest way to put it. goku going ssjg is the only way for him to access his god ki.

using god ki at all pushes goku to ssjg as shown.

using the power of ssjg in conjunction with ssj pushes him to ssb.

thats it. no idea whatsoever where this nonsensical theory came from.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Jul 13 2016, 05:37 AM
the two base theory is baseless garbage. thats the simplest way to put it. goku going ssjg is the only way for him to access his god ki.

using god ki at all pushes goku to ssjg as shown.

using the power of ssjg in conjunction with ssj pushes him to ssb.

thats it. no idea whatsoever where this nonsensical theory came from.
Kaboom
 

I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, since Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.
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Tinny
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FutureSaiyan
Jul 12 2016, 06:27 AM
Tinny
Jul 7 2016, 01:54 PM
Timothy
Jul 7 2016, 01:31 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Jul 7 2016, 12:24 PM
Timothy
Jul 7 2016, 07:57 AM
Sbg is just base form yo. Ssj>ssg and base>>>>>>>>>ss3 gotenks. Stop the downplay
D'ya think Trunks is that strong then?

Also, how can he transform into SSJ when his Base has God Ki without transforming into SSB?
No but trunks has been fighting black for a year. Also idk. Maybe god ki is only accessed in god forms. Regardless without god ki ssj goku>>ssg
Did you say that Trunks isn't as strong as super saiyan god, but that ssj Goku is stronger than super saiyan god, when Goku was using ssj2 against Trunks?
How does that work?
Clearly Goku was holding back as he is annoyingly renowned for doing in super. Considering Black destroyed ss2 Trunks whilst Goku ss2 was matching black blow for blow and not even taking the fight that serious.

Logically though Goku should be able to do this entire fight in base form though, he shouldn't even need to double or even get to his base power to match Trunks. Either that or apparently running away from Black (who can't possibly be that far removed from him) made Trunks so strong that he shot up straight past Dabura, Gotenks, Buu, and Gohan all the way to god tier. Which at this point makes Goku and Vegeta just look like they're coasting on god ki and slacking when you realize that Piccolo and Freeza did the same thing by relatively similar methods (fighting someone around your level, or in Freeza's case significantly below).

Even if you consider he's holding back, that still means you need the two base theory or else Goku's supposedly god tier base form is getting matched, exceeded, or at least approached by just about everyone that bothers to train for a while, massively exceeding the gains he naturally made from end of the buu arc to the current saga.

At this rate it's looking less like Goku trains and gets stronger that way and more like he's just as bad as Gohan, despite supposedly having a love for training, instead relying on rituals and magic to get him his strength (mystic and god form for Gohan and Goku respectively).

The two base theory however solves these problems without making Goku look lazy, it's easy to see Piccolo and Trunks reaching about buu tier, and Freeza stays the really special one like the story intended (or was saying with how Goku praised Freeza's incredible gains in strength).

Edit: almost forgot Vegeta, he supposedly trained the old fashioned way to get to god tier as well. So that's five guys who reached god tier in just the normal line up, six including Cabba, and Goku is the only one who needed ssjg to reach it.

@ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Isn't it obvious? You're making Piccolo weaker, and that's not okay. It's obvious he's a huge Piccolo fan and doesn't like how you're nerfing the lean mean green machine. Logically.
Edited by Tinny, Jul 13 2016, 03:14 PM.
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The manga has made it kinda confusing now by re-introducing the red form. Regular SSj God could be a good way to show the difference between base form and "base form with God ki", but the problem is Goku fought Freeza in his regular base form, despite all evidence suggesting he'd need God ki to do that.
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Tinny
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Clearin
Jul 13 2016, 03:00 PM
The manga has made it kinda confusing now by re-introducing the red form. Regular SSj God could be a good way to show the difference between base form and "base form with God ki", but the problem is Goku fought Freeza in his regular base form, despite all evidence suggesting he'd need God ki to do that.
What about Kaboom's idea regarding it? It seems to make the most sense and allows Goku to fight in "base form" and have god ki without him going ssjg
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Tinny
Jul 13 2016, 03:04 PM
Clearin
Jul 13 2016, 03:00 PM
The manga has made it kinda confusing now by re-introducing the red form. Regular SSj God could be a good way to show the difference between base form and "base form with God ki", but the problem is Goku fought Freeza in his regular base form, despite all evidence suggesting he'd need God ki to do that.
What about Kaboom's idea regarding it? It seems to make the most sense and allows Goku to fight in "base form" and have god ki without him going ssjg
You mean the different % of God ki? I guess it works. Though I do disagree that red haired form is "mostly God Ki" while blue haired form is "all God ki". The blue haired form isn't base. It's a Saiyan who has turned Super Saiyan with God ki.

The red form would be all god ki, and then transforming like that would give you blue haired form.

Edit: Goku losing the red haired form while fighting Beerus also kinda makes this impossible. He had God ki then despite still having black/yellow hair
Edited by Clearin, Jul 13 2016, 03:17 PM.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Honestly, I just assume Super Saiyan God is at a set level.
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Clearin
Jul 13 2016, 03:10 PM
Tinny
Jul 13 2016, 03:04 PM
Clearin
Jul 13 2016, 03:00 PM
The manga has made it kinda confusing now by re-introducing the red form. Regular SSj God could be a good way to show the difference between base form and "base form with God ki", but the problem is Goku fought Freeza in his regular base form, despite all evidence suggesting he'd need God ki to do that.
What about Kaboom's idea regarding it? It seems to make the most sense and allows Goku to fight in "base form" and have god ki without him going ssjg
You mean the different % of God ki? I guess it works. Though I do disagree that red haired form is "mostly God Ki" while blue haired form is "all God ki". The blue haired form isn't base. It's a Saiyan who has turned Super Saiyan with God ki.

The red form would be all god ki, and then transforming like that would give you blue haired form.

Edit: Goku losing the red haired form while fighting Beerus also kinda makes this impossible. He had God ki then despite still having black/yellow hair
To your edit: I think that was just an incomplete form of Super Saiyan Blue. I know he came out of Super Saiyan God but he subconsciously gripped onto the God ki via Super Saiyan (seeing as how he mastered that form back in the Cell Games).
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